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TOPIC: Fake bannerstones

Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #103911

  • pkfrey
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OK, should I say anything, or just let it slide. There is an artifact auction coming up with three bannerstones in it. Two of these, ( and possibly the third ) were in another previous auction and pulled. Now they're up again. And what's really interesting, they come with multiple COAs. When I know of things like this happening, I let my collector friends know, so they don't waste their money. Should I let the good folks from this site know as well? So they don't waste their money? There's more to the story, and the bottom line is this. I know they're fake because a friend of mine, and myself, sat in the driveway of the guy who made them, and watched as he made them. These banners were already pointed out as fake by several other collectors that I know. How they got COAs I'll never know!
Paul RS Frey
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #103915

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If I knew they were fake and let you buy them how would you feel?
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #103916

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pkfrey wrote:
OK, should I say anything, or just let it slide. There is an artifact auction coming up with three bannerstones in it. Two of these, ( and possibly the third ) were in another previous auction and pulled. Now they're up again. And what's really interesting, they come with multiple COAs. When I know of things like this happening, I let my collector friends know, so they don't waste their money. Should I let the good folks from this site know as well? So they don't waste their money? There's more to the story, and the bottom line is this. I know they're fake because a friend of mine, and myself, sat in the driveway of the guy who made them, and watched as he made them. These banners were already pointed out as fake by several other collectors that I know. How they got COAs I'll never know!
pkfrey It is my belief that this hurts us all! we need all eyes watching those that are fakes, I personally dont buy or sell but hate to think there are fake "COA" arti"FAKES" out there. tell all you know "PLEASE"
Look to the ground for it holds the past!
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #103917

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OK, I will reveal all information. If someone involved gets ticked, then I will at least know this is the right course of action. In the upcoming Putty auction on Nov. 16, lots 104,105 and 244 are fakes. Guaranteed 104 & 105, and I believe 244 also. Lot 244 wasn't part of the previous auction, but I recognize it. I physically sat in a chair and watched a gentlemen from York, Pa. make these banners in his driveway! They were previously in Bennetts auction, and after myself and several others notified him, he pulled them. These are photographed and documented as fakes in I.A.M., Indian Artifact Magazine, published by Gary Fogelman. There isn't any confusion, guessing, or argueing. I watched those banners being made!! More of the story is included in the mag., on page 65. They were originally sold to a private collector from N.J. and reported as being found on the Savich Farm Site, N.j. Questions arose because they're are no known bannerstones on the market from that site. All the banners from the site are documented and are in a collection in Va. That's when I was contacted to look at those banners. My concern is how these known, fake artifacts keep cropping up at auctions as authentic, when they are known to be fake, and what's more disturbing, is how could they get COAs, even multiple COAs, from reputable authenticators? By the way, the large Adena blades from the Sandy Hill Site, Md., that are floating around the market, and ebay, fall under the same scenario. They're also fakes! There is something gone terribly wrong with this hobby, when the $$$$$$ signs are more important than the ethics that we should ALL adhere to!!
Paul RS Frey
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #103939

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Paul, you have just done a service to the honest collector. Bringing things like this to light is the best way to stop the fraud....Yes, I said fraud!
Sometimes I can.....sometimes I can't....Sometimes I just don't try
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #103956

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Thanks for putting the word out about the fakes, definitely the right thing to do on your part and the wrong thing for the maker to let those go without marking them. I am surprised Jim Bennett actually let that one slip through, all of his artifacts are supposed to be pre-screened for authenticity and he is one of the respectable authenticators. Just goes to show that nothing is guaranteed authentic. It sounds like the banners keep getting passed down the line because nobody wants to get stuck with them and take the loss, kind of like playing hot potato.
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #103960

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Thanks Pk and nicely put Cache. Think you right on with the hot potato.
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #103969

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I would return the item for a refund or take the man to court.
If You Don’t Stand for Something, You’ll Fall for Anything
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #103975

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The entire situation with those bannerstones is one of the most deceitful, con jobs that I have personal knowledge of. It started with the guy from York, Pa. making 13 bannerstones, all of steatite. He showed those to another collector from N.J., who just wasn't very knowledgeable. The N.J. collector paid $10,000 for all 13 banners. That was on Friday. On Sat morning the guy called and asked me to look at them. I instantly recognized them. I told him to take them back, which he did. In the meantime, I called the faker and told him just what I thought, and I know I used some swear words that haven't been invented yet. I suggested he refund the money or face a major law suit. He wouldn't refund the money. He faced the lawsuit and WON!! The judge said it was a situation where the buyer should have known what he was buying. At that point, the guy who spent the $10,000 sold the banners at a giant loss. This is where the problems started. As the banners sold to various collectors, they were sent out to different authenticators. Many of the banners were deemed fraudulent, but 4 or 5 actually passed and got COAs. These are the ones that are now coming up for sale at different auctions. They were even on ebay for awhile. There are now 9 or 10 FAKE bannerstones in peoples collections from this one guy, and I'm sure those people think they're authentic. The guy from York is still to this day, as we speak, creating more fake hardstone artifacts and selling them at the local flea markets. I could write a small book on what I've seen over the past two years. It makes me sick knowing this guy is taking collectors across for thousands of dollars, and when I tell them about the faker, THEY DON'T BELIEVE ME!! So I kept my mouth shut until now, and after I saw three banners from this guy in Puttys auction, I had to tell someone. I should tell Putty about this, but he probably wouldn't believe me. I could take him to this guys house over in York, and he would see all the pieces and rejects that broke during the manufacturing and drilling process.
Paul RS Frey
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #104046

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Thanks for sharing, and I say tell Putty all you know. I'm sure plenty on here would back up your credibility. Gary
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #104097

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I think you done well , and thank u for telling what you know ...
It makes me sick just thinking about it ..
Again, thank u for stepping up and saying something
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #104103

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Paul, I am glad that you, and IAM, have pointed all of this out. Most collectors would never hear the real story of these things, which have been floating around for awhile now. These certainly aren't the only ones.
Was the maker using native PA steatite, or is it from elsewhere? I take it he was using modern power tools? Is the particular IAM issue out now- I have not received my November issue??
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #104104

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This all starts with someone in their backyard with a rock saying, "Look what I can do!".......then not permanently marking their work as their own and as a repro.
I would love to smash known fakes to dust.

Great heads up!@@@!!!! The Hobby and I thank you. :) This should be posted on all the artifact forums if anything to start the discussion.

Caveat Emptor
Professor Shellman
Last Edit: 5 years 7 months ago by tomclark.
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #104111

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The article in I.A.M. on the banners is Vol. 31-4, Nov. 2012. Two of the three banners in the Putty auction are pictured. The Sandy Hill blades, reported to be in the Townsend coll., are in Vol.32-1, Feb. 2013. The fake ones are pictured. Someone on ebay who consistently sells fakes , had the Townsend blades. And here again, they COME WITH COAs!!! The soapstone the guy used is an exotic type material from India, or someplace over there. As I said, the guy from York who's making these, is still in business, and defrauding collectors out of thousands of dollars at the local flea markets!
Paul RS Frey
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Fake bannerstones 5 years 7 months ago #104113

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I have the catalog you are refering to and just looked up the banners you were talking about. I would never have guessed them as fakes, but then, I don't know as much about stone pieces.

I did personally learn the hard way that fake artifacts can and do get COAs. Putty apparently has a pretty bad reputation in the collecting community for just that. He's the one that gave me mine. First time I've ever heard of Davis giving out a bad one tho, but I guess even the ones in the know can be fooled.

Thank you for pointing it out.
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